From kevinf at real.com  Wed Jun  4 15:09:54 2003
From: kevinf at real.com (Kevin Foreman)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: FW: Request for Conference Call regarding licensing
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030604145801.02a38558@mailone.real.com>

Tsvi, sorry for the delay in responding.

We are in the midst on ensure our Licensing FAQ is brought more up to date 
to prevent us from bottlenecking you in the future.

Under a separate thread (so not to tie up the public mailing list) I'll 
synch up our calendars.

Kevin
--------------------------------
At 12:25 AM 6/5/2003 +0300, Tsvi Lev wrote:

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tsvi Lev
>Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 12:24 AM
>To: 'licensing@open.helixcommunity.org'
>Subject: Request for Conference Call regarding licensing
>
>
>Who should be contacted for arranging a call to get a better understanding 
>of Helix licensing issues?
>I have been trying direct emails to Kevin Foreman and Robert Lanphier, but 
>they seem to be unavailable for
>the past week or so.
>Apologies for using a public mailing list for this, but I have no idea who 
>else to contact.
>
>Tsvi Lev,
>Director,
>Head of the Business Development Group
>Emblaze Systems Ltd
>Email: tsvi.lev@emblaze.com
>Phone:+972-9-7699601
>
>
>
>
>
>**************************************************************************************************
>The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential.
>It is intended for the named recipient(s) only.
>If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager 
>or  the
>sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies.
>
>** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content **
>**************************************************************************************************

---------
Kevin

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From Tsvi.Lev at emblaze.com  Wed Jun  4 14:23:38 2003
From: Tsvi.Lev at emblaze.com (Tsvi Lev)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: Request for Conference Call regarding licensing
Message-ID: 

Who should be contacted for arranging a call to get a better understanding of Helix licensing issues?
I have been trying direct emails to Kevin Foreman and Robert Lanphier, but they seem to be unavailable for 
the past week or so.
Apologies for using a public mailing list for this, but I have no idea who else to contact.

Tsvi Lev,
Director,
Head of the Business Development Group
Emblaze Systems Ltd
Email: tsvi.lev@emblaze.com
Phone:+972-9-7699601

**************************************************************************************************
The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential.
It is intended for the named recipient(s) only.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or  the 
sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies.

** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content **
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From bszabo at mco.edu  Thu Jun 12 11:55:56 2003
From: bszabo at mco.edu (Brian Szabo)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: license question
Message-ID: 

I could use some help deciphering the licensing for Helix Producer.  Basically, we are using the Helix Producer "SDK" for OS X to develop an application that can read a QuickTime file, encode it, and saves the encoded file.  We would only be distributing the helixproducer.bundle with our application.

We are an academic institution.  The application is distributed on same campus and we also have some local high schools who use the product.  We do not sell or intend to sell the application.

We are thinking we will need RCSL with attachment D/D2.

Thanks,

Brian Szabo
Center for Creative Instruction
Medical College of Ohio

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From kevinf at real.com  Thu Jun 12 15:44:13 2003
From: kevinf at real.com (Kevin Foreman)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: license question
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030612153920.0344c390@mailone.real.com>

Brian, thanks for your note.  Since you are only using the SDK, we have a 
simply clickwrap agreement.  Here it is.

http://forms.helixcommunity.org/helix/producersdk/index.html

Kevin
-------------------
At 02:55 PM 6/12/2003 -0400, Brian Szabo wrote:
>I could use some help deciphering the licensing for Helix 
>Producer.  Basically, we are using the Helix Producer "SDK" for OS X to 
>develop an application that can read a QuickTime file, encode it, and 
>saves the encoded file.  We would only be distributing the 
>helixproducer.bundle with our application.
>
>We are an academic institution.  The application is distributed on same 
>campus and we also have some local high schools who use the product.  We 
>do not sell or intend to sell the application.
>
>We are thinking we will need RCSL with attachment D/D2.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Brian Szabo
>Center for Creative Instruction
>Medical College of Ohio

---------------------------------
Kevin Foreman
General Manager, Helix
RealNetworks, Inc.
E-mail: kevinf@real.com
http://www.helixcommunity.org

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From kevinf at real.com  Thu Jun 12 17:11:03 2003
From: kevinf at real.com (Kevin Foreman)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: license question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030612171021.034417f8@mailone.real.com>

BTW, I forgot to mention, the Helix Producer SDK is free.

Kevin
-------------------------------------

>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:44:13 -0700
>To: "Brian Szabo" , licensing@open.helixcommunity.org
>From: Kevin Foreman 
>Subject: Re: license question
>
>Brian, thanks for your note.  Since you are only using the SDK, we have a 
>simply clickwrap agreement.  Here it is.
>
>http://forms.helixcommunity.org/helix/producersdk/index.html
>
>
>Kevin
>-------------------
>At 02:55 PM 6/12/2003 -0400, Brian Szabo wrote:
>>I could use some help deciphering the licensing for Helix 
>>Producer.  Basically, we are using the Helix Producer "SDK" for OS X to 
>>develop an application that can read a QuickTime file, encode it, and 
>>saves the encoded file.  We would only be distributing the 
>>helixproducer.bundle with our application.
>>
>>We are an academic institution.  The application is distributed on same 
>>campus and we also have some local high schools who use the product.  We 
>>do not sell or intend to sell the application.
>>
>>We are thinking we will need RCSL with attachment D/D2.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Brian Szabo
>>Center for Creative Instruction
>>Medical College of Ohio
>
>---------------------------------
>Kevin Foreman
>General Manager, Helix
>RealNetworks, Inc.
>E-mail: kevinf@real.com
>http://www.helixcommunity.org
>
>

---------
Kevin
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From jcsston at ToughGuy.net  Mon Jun 16 21:30:33 2003
From: jcsston at ToughGuy.net (Jory)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other containers
Message-ID: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>

Are there any legal issues with me extracting the data packets from a
RealMedia file using code I wrote using the RMFF specs in the RealSystemG2
SDK. The specs are also at http://www.pcisys.net/~melanson/codecs/rmff.htm

After extracting the packets I would place the unaltered packets in another
file format/container, Matroska in my case.
And, finally I would attempt to play back the Matroska file.

Thanks in advance,
Jory Stone
jcsston@toughguy.net
Matroska, the new, extensible open standard A/V container format
http://www.matroska.org/

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From ross at ntgr8.ca  Thu Jun 19 09:42:37 2003
From: ross at ntgr8.ca (Ross)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: broadcast reception license
Message-ID: <1056040957.3ef1e7fd07a48@mail.canadacast.ca>

>From Helix DNA server (serv_dist_all):
"logplin(12769): A configuration was found for broadcast reception, but this
server is not licensed for broadcast reception."

If i send a stream from producer it works but if the stream comes from a helix
universal server I get that error message....

How do I make this work?
Do I just need to do something in my hlx_license.lic or is there yet another
license I need to get?

-ross

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From kevinf at real.com  Thu Jun 19 09:22:29 2003
From: kevinf at real.com (Kevin Foreman)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: Req for information on RealOne player for Openwave
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030618102650.025b40b8@mailone.real.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030619084805.02914408@mailone.real.com>

Rene, thanks for your note.  I've provided answers inline below.

>>>From: "rene haring" 
>>>Subject: Req for  information on  RealOne player for Openwave
>>>Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:43:26 +0200
>>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
>>>
>>>Dear Sir/Madame,
>>>
>>>My name is Rene Haring, I am working for Optimay 
>>>www.optimay.com and Agere System 
>>>www.agere.com .
>>>At the moment we are investigatingaudio and  video software codecs and 
>>>Multimedia framework software.
>>>These products are needed for a software platform and reference design 
>>>of our next generation mobile phone chip sets.
>>>
>>>On the website of OpenWave a saw that there is an integration  of your 
>>>realone player and the OpenWave framework.
>>>The solution looks interesting to us and we would like to have some 
>>>information on this product.
>>>
Yes, you are correct, Openwave and RealNetworks have 
publicly 
announced  the integration of the RealOne Mobile Player into Phone Tools V7 
and that Openwave has licensed the Helix DNA Client (the source code of the 
media engine of the RealOne Player) to provide support for RealAudio, 
RealVideo, 3GPP and 3GPP2 formats on mobile devices.  However, no schedule 
has been publicly disclosed.

>>>What we want to know is  what must our platform offer and what kind on 
>>>porting/integration effort we must do
>>>to get the realone player to work on our platform.

Fantastic news.  We make available source code of the media engine and 
RealAudio/RealVideo of the RealOne Player 
(Helix 
DNA Client)  via the Helix 
Community, for this exact reason.  We are 
trying to enable as many product developers to leverage this software which 
is enabled to support any format, any OS and any chip set.

Simply:
1) Freely Join the Helix Community (over 
10,000 developers already have)
2) Agree to the clickwrap free 
R&D 
license of the RCSL (RealNetworks Community Source License)
3) Download the Helix DNA Client and build your product
4) Once you are ready to distribute either you (or your OEMs), sign the 
Commerce 
Use Attachments of the RCSL

>>>
>>>could you please give me the following information.
>>>
>>>Do you support the following media codecs?
>>>
>>>MPEG-4 simple visual profile level 1
>>>MPEG-4 audio AAC LC
>>>H.263 baseline
>>>MPEG level 3 (MP3)
>>>WMA
>>>
The codec currently supported for 
streaming and playback within Helix are eight datatypes:

     * AAC audio
     * AMR audio
     * H.263 video
     * MP3 audio
     * MPEG4 parsing and MPEG4 audio playback
     * RAM metafile parsing and playback
     * RealMedia audio and video - RealAudio and RealVideo
     * SDP file parsing

We anticipate the addition of several new datatypes over the next few 
months. We are looking for developers interested in:
     * RTP packetization issues on various standard datatypes
     * Adding new MPEG4 and RM codecs
     * Adding new datatypes
     * Porting issues

>>>Do you have footprint sizes of these codecs.?
>>>
>>>Do you  have performance indicators in on ARM9E type of CPU?

I personally don't know, however, one of the benefits of Helix Community 
membership is direct access to the community engineers (RealNetworks and 
others) and the 
mailing 
lists of the sub 
projects 
like datatypes.

>>>
>>>I tried to E-mail  before but I got  little response, could you please 
>>>acknowledge  the receipt  of this mail.

Sorry, to hear this.  Again, we have formed the Helix Community as a means 
to ensure we stop bottlenecking developers from building the world's best 
media enabled products.  You will also see there is a licensing alias for 
Helix DNA technology and the Helix community - cc'd here.  Should the 
FAQ's and other licensing 
pages not meet your needs, use this alias to ensure the fastest response in 
the future.

Best to you and Optimay

>>>
>>>Yours,  Rene Haring.
>>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Kevin Foreman
>>General Manager, Helix
>>RealNetworks, Inc.
>>E-mail: kevinf@real.com
>>http://www.helixcommunity.org
>>
>>
>>
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From kevinf at real.com  Thu Jun 19 14:34:59 2003
From: kevinf at real.com (Kevin Foreman)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: broadcast reception license
In-Reply-To: <1056040957.3ef1e7fd07a48@mail.canadacast.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030619142642.02978448@mailone.real.com>

Ross, thanks for your note.

Yes, you need to license more functionality (aka splitting) than the native 
Helix DNA Server provides.  Specifically, you will need to license the 
Helix Server Add-On Technology (Executable) Commercial Use License, which 
is Attachment 
F-3.2 (Advanced 
Network Server Code)  of the 
RCSL.

I've also cc'd the AdvancedNetworkServer mailing list, which is a specific 
mailing list for this line of conversation.

Thanks again for your interest in Helix DNA.

Kevin
----------------------

At 11:42 AM 6/19/2003 -0500, Ross wrote:

> From Helix DNA server (serv_dist_all):
>"logplin(12769): A configuration was found for broadcast reception, but this
>server is not licensed for broadcast reception."
>
>If i send a stream from producer it works but if the stream comes from a helix
>universal server I get that error message....
>
>How do I make this work?
>Do I just need to do something in my hlx_license.lic or is there yet another
>license I need to get?
>
>-ross
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------
Kevin
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From robla at real.com  Tue Jun 24 09:19:04 2003
From: robla at real.com (Rob Lanphier)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other containers
In-Reply-To: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>
Message-ID: <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Jory,

Thanks for your note, and sorry for the delayed reply.  The RealSystem
SDK agreement does not allow you to put RealAudio or RealVideo into a
file format other than RMFF (.rm).  Having said that, the OSI-certified
RPSL and commercial RCSL licenses of the Helix DNA Client allow and in
fact encourage you to build file formats and codecs (eg Matroska) into
the Helix DNA Client - just as Xiph.org is doing (see
https://xiph.helixcommunity.org).  

Since RealAudio and RealVideo already play within the Helix DNA Client,
we haven't seen the need to wrap them inside another format other than
RealMedia, and thus haven't provided the legal right.  What problem are
you trying to solve by putting RealAudio and RealVideo in the Matroska
format?

Rob

On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:30, Jory wrote:
> Are there any legal issues with me extracting the data packets from a
> RealMedia file using code I wrote using the RMFF specs in the RealSystemG2
> SDK. The specs are also at http://www.pcisys.net/~melanson/codecs/rmff.htm
> 
> After extracting the packets I would place the unaltered packets in another
> file format/container, Matroska in my case.
> And, finally I would attempt to play back the Matroska file.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jory Stone
> jcsston@toughguy.net
> Matroska, the new, extensible open standard A/V container format
> http://www.matroska.org/
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: licensing-unsubscribe@open.helixcommunity.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: licensing-help@open.helixcommunity.org
-- 
Rob Lanphier, Helix Community Coordinator - RealNetworks
http://helixcommunity.org http://rtsp.org http://realnetworks.com

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From robla at real.com  Tue Jun 24 11:28:40 2003
From: robla at real.com (Rob Lanphier)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other
	containers
In-Reply-To: <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com>
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>
	 <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com>
Message-ID: <1056479319.23164.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 11:18, Karl Lillevold wrote:
> I guess the main problem they are trying to solve is to enable
> alternative players for RealMedia. It was my understanding one goal
> with Helix was to make it possible to create alternative RealMedia
> players, but it seems this license restriction makes it so that
> alternative players are possible only if they can parse and play the
> RMFF fileformat?

It's entirely possible and legal to have a Matroska file format for the
Helix DNA Client, Server, and Producer, and we would love to see that. 
What's not legal is to put RealAudio or RealVideo data in a Matroska
container.

This is not a restriction that I'm personally wedded to.  Being the big,
stupid company that we are (), it's something that would take a fair
amount of work for me to make the case we should allow this.  I'd be
happy to make that case if I had a clear understanding of what new
applications this would enable that aren't possible today.  Jory, could
you help describe what this would enable?

Rob

> Tuesday, June 24, 2003, 9:19:04 AM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> > What problem are
> > you trying to solve by putting RealAudio and RealVideo in the Matroska
> > format?
> 
> > Rob
> 
> > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:30, Jory wrote:
> >> Are there any legal issues with me extracting the data packets from a
> >> RealMedia file using code I wrote using the RMFF specs in the RealSystemG2
> >> SDK. The specs are also at http://www.pcisys.net/~melanson/codecs/rmff.htm
> >> 
> >> After extracting the packets I would place the unaltered packets in another
> >> file format/container, Matroska in my case.
> >> And, finally I would attempt to play back the Matroska file.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >> Jory Stone
> >> jcsston@toughguy.net
> >> Matroska, the new, extensible open standard A/V container format
> >> http://www.matroska.org/
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: licensing-unsubscribe@open.helixcommunity.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: licensing-help@open.helixcommunity.org
-- 
Rob Lanphier, Helix Community Coordinator - RealNetworks
http://helixcommunity.org http://rtsp.org http://realnetworks.com

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From karll at real.com  Tue Jun 24 11:18:54 2003
From: karll at real.com (Karl Lillevold)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other containers
In-Reply-To: <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>
 <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com>

I guess the main problem they are trying to solve is to enable
alternative players for RealMedia. It was my understanding one goal
with Helix was to make it possible to create alternative RealMedia
players, but it seems this license restriction makes it so that
alternative players are possible only if they can parse and play the
RMFF fileformat?

karl.

Tuesday, June 24, 2003, 9:19:04 AM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> What problem are
> you trying to solve by putting RealAudio and RealVideo in the Matroska
> format?

> Rob

> On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:30, Jory wrote:
>> Are there any legal issues with me extracting the data packets from a
>> RealMedia file using code I wrote using the RMFF specs in the RealSystemG2
>> SDK. The specs are also at http://www.pcisys.net/~melanson/codecs/rmff.htm
>> 
>> After extracting the packets I would place the unaltered packets in another
>> file format/container, Matroska in my case.
>> And, finally I would attempt to play back the Matroska file.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Jory Stone
>> jcsston@toughguy.net
>> Matroska, the new, extensible open standard A/V container format
>> http://www.matroska.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: licensing-unsubscribe@open.helixcommunity.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: licensing-help@open.helixcommunity.org

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From noprivacy at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 24 12:57:15 2003
From: noprivacy at earthlink.net (noprivacy@earthlink.net)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from othercontainers
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston> <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com> <1056479319.23164.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <001401c33a8a$db3fdf80$f409bd3f@name>

Since the message was posted publicly, I just thought I'd comment about
this...

I'm just a lurker here, not a developer etc.  Just an end user.  So my
comments have little or no value.  Having said that...

It seems to me that the more applications that would be able to use the
Real codecs etc., the better off RealNetworks would be.

I'm not saying these would ever get implemented or be useful, but for
example...

The Nullsoft Streaming Video container.  Currently using the opensource
vp32.  The Ogg media format container, currently using vp32 and Ogg...  etc.
etc.

I realize that Real's codecs themselves aren't and never will be open
source, but since since those (and others) containers are specifically
designed to be able to contain any type of video & audio, then why not allow
Real, as well.

Nobody may ever actually use it, but at least the option would be there, in
case they needed higher quality than what the open source vp32 can give.

Allowing things like that opens up possibilities, which is why Helix was
done open source to begin with, wasn't it?

Look how much development has been done since the main stuff went
opensource?  Compare that to how little was done when it was closed source
and tightly controlled.

I can't think of any specific uses.  Only that it opens up possibilities,
which was the exact same reason the source itself was opened up.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Lanphier" 
To: "Karl Lillevold" 
Cc: "Jory" ; ;

Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from
othercontainers

> On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 11:18, Karl Lillevold wrote:
> > I guess the main problem they are trying to solve is to enable
> > alternative players for RealMedia. It was my understanding one goal
> > with Helix was to make it possible to create alternative RealMedia
> > players, but it seems this license restriction makes it so that
> > alternative players are possible only if they can parse and play the
> > RMFF fileformat?
>
> It's entirely possible and legal to have a Matroska file format for the
> Helix DNA Client, Server, and Producer, and we would love to see that.
> What's not legal is to put RealAudio or RealVideo data in a Matroska
> container.
>
> This is not a restriction that I'm personally wedded to.  Being the big,
> stupid company that we are (), it's something that would take a fair
> amount of work for me to make the case we should allow this.  I'd be
> happy to make that case if I had a clear understanding of what new
> applications this would enable that aren't possible today.  Jory, could
> you help describe what this would enable?
>
> Rob
>
> > Tuesday, June 24, 2003, 9:19:04 AM, Rob Lanphier wrote:
> > > What problem are
> > > you trying to solve by putting RealAudio and RealVideo in the Matroska
> > > format?
> >
> > > Rob
> >
> > > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 21:30, Jory wrote:
> > >> Are there any legal issues with me extracting the data packets from a
> > >> RealMedia file using code I wrote using the RMFF specs in the
RealSystemG2
> > >> SDK. The specs are also at
http://www.pcisys.net/~melanson/codecs/rmff.htm
> > >>
> > >> After extracting the packets I would place the unaltered packets in
another
> > >> file format/container, Matroska in my case.
> > >> And, finally I would attempt to play back the Matroska file.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks in advance,
> > >> Jory Stone
> > >> jcsston@toughguy.net
> > >> Matroska, the new, extensible open standard A/V container format
> > >> http://www.matroska.org/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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> --
> Rob Lanphier, Helix Community Coordinator - RealNetworks
> http://helixcommunity.org http://rtsp.org http://realnetworks.com
>
>
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From chris at matroska.org  Tue Jun 24 14:24:04 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other
 containers
In-Reply-To: <1056479319.23164.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>	 <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>	 <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com> <1056479319.23164.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3EF8C174.3080604@matroska.org>

Rob Lanphier wrote:

>It's entirely possible and legal to have a Matroska file format for the
>Helix DNA Client, Server, and Producer, and we would love to see that. 
>What's not legal is to put RealAudio or RealVideo data in a Matroska
>container. This is not a restriction that I'm personally wedded to.  Being the big,
>stupid company that we are (), it's something that would take a fair
>amount of work for me to make the case we should allow this.  I'd be
>happy to make that case if I had a clear understanding of what new
>applications this would enable that aren't possible today.  Jory, could
>you help describe what this would enable? Rob
>  
>
Hi,

please allow me to try to answer this question for Jory. I am one of the 
founders and project admins of matroska and hope to be able to give some 
good explanations here.

matroska is pretty much a complementary thing to realmedia container, as 
its clearly targeted and designed for video editing and storage, and not 
for streaming purposes. With some tweaking it may be possible to use 
matroska for streaming also, but we expect that to be suboptimal, again, 
it wasnt designed for this purpose.

To understand why it may be a nice thing to have Real content in 
matroska files, its important to understand where it is different than 
other containers. If audio and video content is going to be put into a 
matroska file, the muxing app has to follow a number of very strict 
rules. This requires to make a clear description on our spec pages for 
*EVERY* compression format thats going to be put into matroska files, 
such that developers creating apps to read/write matroska files know 
exactly how it had to be done, and specific for every codec/format. 
While this policy may look stupid for many developers in first instance, 
as for them its lifting the value of the container to a level where it 
shouldnt be really, this has one clear advantage :

matroska files can be edited/cut/merged without the need for the editing 
application to have *ANY* knowledge about the actual content at all. A 
good example for that is the editing application we are currently 
working with, a mod of Virtualdub called 'VirtualdubMod' ( you guessed 
it ;-) ). Its main developer, Julien 'Cyius' Coloon, is limited a lot by 
the structure of the underlying Virtualdub, which is heavily based on 
VfW, and thus can only handle VCM and ACM codecs normally. However, the 
current CVS version is already able to handle a couple of different 
video codecs for editing and cutting of  matroska files, even those 
without a VCM codec, and basically EVERY audio format we can put into 
matroska already, being AAC, AC3, DTS, PCM, MP3, MP2, Real ATRAC and 
Real COOK . The same is valid for the various subtitle formats we 
support, such as SRT, SSA/ASS and USF.

We are in contact with people from the MPEG4IP team to investigate if 
matroska could be used as a powerful editing container to edit MP4 
files, by muxing the MP4 into MKV, edit them, and then mux back into MP4 
finally. The same could be done with Realmedia files in matroska editing 
applications, and with some good will from your side ( like a decoder 
DLL limited to decode keyframes only ) we could even implement some 
limited preview functions so the users know where to cut.

The architecture on which matroska is based on is a kind of binary 
version of XML and very flexible, to be able to extend the format for 
the future, but this is mainly necessary because of the very strict 
rules to put any kind of content into matroska files. We need to be 
flexible here, as we dont know yet what future codecs may require, but 
we certainly dont want to break our general policy of having advanced 
editability of matroska files. Again, matroska should be seen as a very 
powerful AVI replacement in first place, and its design goals are pretty 
much complementary to those of other containers such as Ogg, MP4 and RM. 
If there is a 'direct competition', it can be seen in MXF and AAF 
rather, but those wont offer any license free libraries AFAIK.

For the user matroska would give him a couple of advantages, like the 
ability to mix the Real codecs with every other supported compression 
format, or to use matroska's nice storage features like menues, chapters 
and attachement files.

I hope i could name a couple of advantages why it could be of interest 
to Real to allow muxing of Real media content into matroska container. 
In the end, to allow playback of these files from Real's players we had 
to add matroska parsing capabilities to Helix DNA client, so this may be 
of interest for you people also ;-).

Best regards

Christian

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From robla at real.com  Thu Jun 26 16:16:31 2003
From: robla at real.com (Rob Lanphier)
Date: Thu Sep 23 18:01:38 2004
Subject: [hxdiscuss] Re: Playing RealVideo/RealAudio content from other
	containers
In-Reply-To: <3EF8C174.3080604@matroska.org>
References: <000201c33489$d7ef6460$0200a8c0@jcsston>
	 <1056471543.23162.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <1173371420.20030624111854@real.com>
	 <1056479319.23164.39.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	 <3EF8C174.3080604@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1056669390.30415.196.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the feedback on this.  I've forwarded this around internally,
and we'll be mulling this over.  I can't make any promises that we'll
make any changes, and certainly can't make any promises on timeframe,
but I will try to keep you (and everyone else) posted.

Rob

On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:24, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> Rob Lanphier wrote:
> 
> >It's entirely possible and legal to have a Matroska file format for the
> >Helix DNA Client, Server, and Producer, and we would love to see that. 
> >What's not legal is to put RealAudio or RealVideo data in a Matroska
> >container. This is not a restriction that I'm personally wedded to.  Being the big,
> >stupid company that we are (), it's something that would take a fair
> >amount of work for me to make the case we should allow this.  I'd be
> >happy to make that case if I had a clear understanding of what new
> >applications this would enable that aren't possible today.  Jory, could
> >you help describe what this would enable? Rob
> >  
> >
> Hi,
> 
> please allow me to try to answer this question for Jory. I am one of the 
> founders and project admins of matroska and hope to be able to give some 
> good explanations here.
> 
> matroska is pretty much a complementary thing to realmedia container, as 
> its clearly targeted and designed for video editing and storage, and not 
> for streaming purposes. With some tweaking it may be possible to use 
> matroska for streaming also, but we expect that to be suboptimal, again, 
> it wasnt designed for this purpose.
> 
> To understand why it may be a nice thing to have Real content in 
> matroska files, its important to understand where it is different than 
> other containers. If audio and video content is going to be put into a 
> matroska file, the muxing app has to follow a number of very strict 
> rules. This requires to make a clear description on our spec pages for 
> *EVERY* compression format thats going to be put into matroska files, 
> such that developers creating apps to read/write matroska files know 
> exactly how it had to be done, and specific for every codec/format. 
> While this policy may look stupid for many developers in first instance, 
> as for them its lifting the value of the container to a level where it 
> shouldnt be really, this has one clear advantage :
> 
> matroska files can be edited/cut/merged without the need for the editing 
> application to have *ANY* knowledge about the actual content at all. A 
> good example for that is the editing application we are currently 
> working with, a mod of Virtualdub called 'VirtualdubMod' ( you guessed 
> it ;-) ). Its main developer, Julien 'Cyius' Coloon, is limited a lot by 
> the structure of the underlying Virtualdub, which is heavily based on 
> VfW, and thus can only handle VCM and ACM codecs normally. However, the 
> current CVS version is already able to handle a couple of different 
> video codecs for editing and cutting of  matroska files, even those 
> without a VCM codec, and basically EVERY audio format we can put into 
> matroska already, being AAC, AC3, DTS, PCM, MP3, MP2, Real ATRAC and 
> Real COOK . The same is valid for the various subtitle formats we 
> support, such as SRT, SSA/ASS and USF.
> 
> We are in contact with people from the MPEG4IP team to investigate if 
> matroska could be used as a powerful editing container to edit MP4 
> files, by muxing the MP4 into MKV, edit them, and then mux back into MP4 
> finally. The same could be done with Realmedia files in matroska editing 
> applications, and with some good will from your side ( like a decoder 
> DLL limited to decode keyframes only ) we could even implement some 
> limited preview functions so the users know where to cut.
> 
> The architecture on which matroska is based on is a kind of binary 
> version of XML and very flexible, to be able to extend the format for 
> the future, but this is mainly necessary because of the very strict 
> rules to put any kind of content into matroska files. We need to be 
> flexible here, as we dont know yet what future codecs may require, but 
> we certainly dont want to break our general policy of having advanced 
> editability of matroska files. Again, matroska should be seen as a very 
> powerful AVI replacement in first place, and its design goals are pretty 
> much complementary to those of other containers such as Ogg, MP4 and RM. 
> If there is a 'direct competition', it can be seen in MXF and AAF 
> rather, but those wont offer any license free libraries AFAIK.
> 
> For the user matroska would give him a couple of advantages, like the 
> ability to mix the Real codecs with every other supported compression 
> format, or to use matroska's nice storage features like menues, chapters 
> and attachement files.
> 
> I hope i could name a couple of advantages why it could be of interest 
> to Real to allow muxing of Real media content into matroska container. 
> In the end, to allow playback of these files from Real's players we had 
> to add matroska parsing capabilities to Helix DNA client, so this may be 
> of interest for you people also ;-).
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: licensing-unsubscribe@open.helixcommunity.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: licensing-help@open.helixcommunity.org
-- 
Rob Lanphier, Helix Community Coordinator - RealNetworks
http://helixcommunity.org http://rtsp.org http://realnetworks.com

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